Yes, TS1 and TS2 had supernatural elements, things that we couldn't have possibly imagined ("Like wow!"), but at least they came with diseases and consequences that we can relate to.

And I like how you put aside the Sims 2 EPs and only bothered to mention TS1 EPs with supernatural elements. Do you remember Hot Date? House Party? Unleashed? University? Nightlife? Open for Business? They have great replay value because they have items/features that can be used over and over again. People have pets, people go on dates and socialize. We interact with people all the time.

But we don't explore tombs all the time now, do we? If your argument is that some people relate to that aspect then fine. Sure, let's give archeologists something they can identify with. What about surgeons? Why can we not see them in action? Police officers? Why can we not benefit from watching them fight crime instead of having things happen behind the scenes?

Is an archeologist such a special snowflake that it deserves an entire EP while the other occupations are put on the backburner? Can a pianist not face challenges in life that players have to have something physically exhausting occur in the game (like running around searching for artifacts) for it to be worth it?

Can they not give sims in the medical career things to do other than run to the rabbit hole when on-call? Can they not allow players to lead their sims through an office building where romances could occur and rumors could spread about their co-workers?

Is "life" (which is what this game is supposedly about) so boring that they can't come up with challenges that most people encounter every single day? If I wanted to explore tombs so badly I could go get Tomb Raider which focuses on that.

You either totally misread my point or are reverting back to twisting words and ignoring things that you can't come up with an argument for.

You claimed that the sims 3 is "straying too far from its original premis" of being a "life simulation game", with something like tomb exploration.

And I countered, by explaining that it is BY FAR not the first expansion to throw in crazy-ass stuff no freaking person experiences every day.

And again, does the game take you and force you to do these things? no, it does not. Does it include things that aren't outlandish that add to the day to day gameplay? YOu bet your ass it does.

It's a non-issue. Don't like the non boring everyday life stuff? Uninstall the expansion or don't do it. They gave you 3 real world countries to visit, they gave you multiple new plants, multiple new fish, mltiple new bugs and ubtterflies, cultural backgrounds which can be passed to children, new decoration and building things, photography, martial arts, nectar(all of which are very everyday things), working stores, new clothes, new hair, and basements.

But because there's ONE THING that's a little outlandish, you act like the fact that it's a game about virtual people has been thrown out the window, which is ridiculous. You don't have to do that one thing, and there's tons of other stuff to do apart fro it.

Yes, cause that's just what we need, don't we? MOAR decorative items that sit there in our homes taking up space. And more butterflies to catch? That's just great. It may not be the first expansion to introduce elements that aren't normally seen in everyday life but at least previous ones (Livin' Large, Superstar, etc.) didn't completely take away from the daily life experience.

Sunset Valley is dead to me. My issue with WA is that it introduces three travel destinations when the main town isn't even complete. Like I said, home is where the heart is. So why make the first EP all about places away from home? What happens when your sims get back?

By the time Makin' Magic was released, our sims were already able to go on dates and take their dogs to the park. EA didn't make magic its top priority by releasing it as the first EP. And when they released Apartment Life and Nightlife (both EPs containing supernatural creatures), they didn't focus solely on the vampires and witches. They gave players the option to own apartments, go on dates, hang out and do things that people would normally do while having the added benefit of turning one of their sims into a supernatural creature.

And from what I've heard about the new restaurant feature in WA, it doesn't even come close to what was offered in Hot Date, Nightlife and OFB. There aren't designated NPCs. A random sim would simply be assigned to work behind the counter.

Where's the janitor? Where's the pianist? Where's the guy that seats you? There aren't even waiters anymore. A sim could work as a waiter, sure, but do we get to see them do this? Do we get to see them serve another sim who happens to be dining at their workplace?

I'd rather have new NPCs and, as Suzetter mentioned earlier, sims responding to each other instead of brushing things like divorces and breakups off as though they were minor events in a person's life. I'd rather the developers developed the main hood before introducing new ones when sims act like brainwashed cult members.

And new gems and butterflies? Please. An EP should offer more than that.

The EP did offer more than that. Just because you don't like it doesnt mean it didnt, god freaking damn.

at least previous ones (Livin' Large, Superstar, etc.) didn't completely take away from the daily life experience.

I will bet you one million dollars that you cannot coherently explain how something optional takes away from what was already there.

Why?

Because you can't.

But if the only feature that it can be proud of is optional then it isn't worth being an EP then, is it? Might as well make it a minor feature of something greater.

Apartment Life added magic but it was about more than just that. Nightlife offered vampires but it improved the game's social dynamics. You didn't have to interact with vampires or be one if you didn't want to. And if you chose not to include vampires in your game, there was still a lot you could do. You could go on a date, go bowling, take pictures with a BFF in a photobooth, go clubbing, etc. Chemistry also affected a sim's love life.

If a player chooses not to explore tombs or visit travel destinations in WA, what else could they possibly do that they can't with just the base game? In what way does it improve a sim's everyday life?

Totally agree with you...
EA could do SO much better in The Sims 3...
When we still had TS2 i always imagined TS3 as a completly new game that would have more features than TS2...
What EA done?They took of all the great things from TS2...
Some things like the scenery and the sky and generally some of the graphics are great but about the sims and the features? FAIL
I really hope to see Lot placement and open stores someday in TS3...
CAW is great but i want to be able to place lots wherever i want directly from my game as i could do in TS2...
And about the rabbit holes?One of the most horrible ideas ever...

Let's be fair: First Expansion Flops are not new to the Sims. Remember University? Which took us to an entirely new subhood when the MAIN hood wasn't exactly well-fleshed-out, and froze time, creating an entirely new subgame that was completely disconnected from the main game? This is that.

To some degree, this expansion is basically a code exercise: They're ironing out exactly how subhoods and new expansions are going to work, and that's why this is first. What seems like an extremely badly executed choice of expansion pack is actually very significant from a coding perspective. It's mostly just unfortunate that it adds little of worth to the game itself.

What you just said sounds like EA is Beta Testing on our dime. How fair is that?

That it adds little worth to the game is one of CharmingFirewaller's points.

I see the correlation you're making between University and WA but one very large difference is that in the TS2 basegame the personal dynamics between sims were better developed than they are in TS3. That was the big draw initially for TS2--not only that your sims aged but they had family dynamics and they interacted with each other in a very cognizant manner. TS3 sims do not have the spark of TS2 sims.

I worry about the underlying architecture, though. But perhaps this is my being naive. I just started playing TS2 a few weeks back, and it's just so much more stable than TS3 - the family trees don't chop up when I go overseas, the inventories don't corrupt - that I've altogether stopped trying to play TS3. It just isn't worth the hassle if I can't get a sustained series of generations out of it, and as it stands, I can't. Something always goes wrong. I've even tried a few where I never go overseas, but they've eventually become corrupted someway or another. All mods removed except (the essential) awesomemod, incredibly conservative play, and I can't seem to win.

Fundamentally, TS3 will be the better game, unless the instabilities are so embedded in its architecture that they are natural products of it. But I believe it, even as I'm quitting: TS3 will be the better game. (Don't panic, I'll still CREATE for TS3). It has all the hallmarks of improvement except the ability to play through four or five generations without multiple reversions to backups and, inevitably it seems, sims and/or inventories becoming too corrupt to work anymore. It's just too far from polished - the architecture is too in-testing - for me to tolerate. TS2's stability wins hands down. But only for now. This is just TS3's 'ugly duckling' phase.

If you are using awesomemod and having inventory and family tree trouble, you are doing something wrong, and I'd go so far as to assume that you're using an outdated version or something.

Not to mention it's not really fair to base the ENTIRE game on those TWO things(one of which is pointless to gameplay), or to compare it to the sims two, where both things were essentually worthless and never used(while in The Sims 3, the inventory is key to gameplay).

But yeah, both those issues were solved a long time ago. Hell, I'm pretty sure they were solved by an official patch.

Again, if it's possible for people to play without errors, it's hard for me to believe those complaining of big errors aren't doing something wrong.

Also, I play with all sorts of hacks and mods and still don't have issues. I doubt something like a difference in hardware could cause that, and we're running the same game, sooooo....the natural conclusion is that you are doing something wrong or using conflicting things or something.

So are we to expect every first expansion to be a flop now? Would the first Sims 4 EP be great only because we lowered our expectations? Should we anticipate a terrible Sims 5 EP in order to fall in love with it? If that's how we're rating its EPs then the game truly is taking multiple steps backward.

And since we're comparing first EPs, I personally think that University would more likely pass as a life simulation expansion than World Adventures. People grow up, finish high school, some may choose to go to college and some may not. Even for those who have chosen not to, they are surrounded by college graduates all the time. It's a part of life.

The University EP gave us musical instruments which can be used by sims that aren't in college. They can finally have a full band and perform in front of an audience who respond by cheering or dancing. In TS3 (even with WA) we only have the guitar. There's an electric one...but it's still a guitar. If they wanted to experiment with the coding, why couldn't they take a stab at the hidden piano code from the base game?

The diner in University at least has someone to serve food. In WA the registers don't even come with their own NPCs, just random sims that volunteer to work behind the counter. Cheap service much?

And about the main hood not being fleshed out in TS2. Remember the bartender? Gee, I don't recall seeing him in Sunset Valley (TS3). Oh that's right, sims serve themselves now. Wouldn't it make more sense for Sunset Valley (a larger town than Pleasantview) to have bartenders? And "open stores" already existed in TS2 even without the University EP.

WA is only including the feature now. I find that to be a step backward.

And as you've been told multiple times but refuse to remember for longer than 3 posts, the things you are talking about [b]have. to. be. handled. differently.[b/] because the game is bigger and more advanced. BECAUSAE it is an open world, those things need to be altered to work properly. It isnt as simple as "GOSH why isnt there a bartender CONSTANTLY standing at attention at every bar in town?!".

This has been explained to you before. it is a different game with a different architecture and an entirely different world structure, it is not as simple as "they did it before so why dont they do it again" and you need to understand this.

And my question is, why aren't they making service sims such as bartenders in the main hood a priority? Why are they giving us entirely new places to explore instead of working on Sunset Valley and improving the social dynamics of the game?

Why should they? They can focus on what they want to focus on.

Can you explain to me how the game would be improved at all if there was a designated sim to do those things for you? What advancement is there? How does that change the social dynamics of the game in any way to have someone standing there doing nothing all hours of the day, instead of your sim doing it themselves? Not only would it take the exact same amount of time to get drinks, but there'd be extra sims your game needs to cache, adding more weight to your save file and more weight to your town and computer resources.

They do not have to cater to your every waking whim. You need to learn to get over the little irrelevant things like that. And also, please, PLEASE stop using them as ways to put down other things. "They should have added bartenders" is not a legitimate complaint against WA. "They should focus on something I want" is not a legitimate complaint against WA.

Fair call, but I keep very up-to-date with awesomemod, checking it at its directory almost daily. Perhaps it is my machine. Perhaps it is my play-style. I can't rule these out, and as a skeptic I won't. What I mean by 'sim corruption' and 'inventory corruption' are game-breaking disintegrations that encompass a wide variety of conditions one or another of which seem to build up in any save game that I play for long periods, which is why it's the LONG TERM STABILITY I have issues with, not those FEATURES. For the first generation or two or three, the game plays like a dream, then the warning signs set in allowing, if I'm careful, a few more generations of gradually more glitchy play.

If the game is significantly more stable for others, then I'm in the wrong, and TS2 is simply more stable for me than TS3 is for me. If that's the case, apologies and I'll retract my earlier statements.

The Sims 3: Bartender Stuff

Seems like a good idea to me!

Okay, just to be clear, I did not mean to put your interests down. If you enjoy exploring tombs then good for you. That said, I find it ironic that you're telling me not to put features that other people may enjoy down when you claim that my desire for a bartender NPC is "irrelevant". It's fine. I will let that go because TS3 is all about sunshines and rainbows.

Now, back to the topic. I think it would save a lot of time for sims hanging out if there were a bartender in a community lot. If my sim were to go on a date and they both wanted drinks, they'd have to take turns instead of ordering at the same time, sitting together Hot Date/Nightlife style.

You say that it would add more weight to our save files and cache, but don't tombs and decorative items do the same thing? That's why I'm wondering why they don't make fleshing out the main hood a priority.

You'd think that, if they were to take up all that space, they might as well make it worth it. It's a life simulation game so I expect it to have bartenders, store clerks and waiters like in real life. If the game randomly assigns a sim to work the cash register then it isn't as realistic as actually having a sim work as a sales clerk, etc.

The concept is good, but the execution is bad. Why can't EA do something logical with their ideas? It's the same thing with Story Progression. There is no story. Sims randomly give birth, parthenogenesis occurs, marriages and breakups occur without disturbing the wind and they all happen behind the scenes. Can't remember the last time my sim got invited to an NPC wedding or party.

If that's a story then it's a badly written one. And the sims are terrible actors.

I wasn't interested in University. I found the advertising a turn off so I didn't get it until after Pets which means I played the TS2 base game solo for a long time. I was able to do this because the TS2 sims were interesting, and there were many entertaining things to do. Here it is 9 months after the base game's release, 3 months after the first EP and people already are bored or frustrated with the game. Obviously, that there is something missing from TS3 that is more than merely an object or location cannot be denied. The question is can this situation ever be corrected? I don't know.

On a side note: I eventually bought university for the inventory items but ended up finding it very useful as I'd only play university once I had accumulated enough of my created sim teens to completely fill the large dorms (no townies-thanks). When they graduated they went back home with a big group of friends. Worked out quite well actually.

That's my point. TS2 worked well on its own for a longer period of time whereas the Sims 3 seems to need EPs just to be more entertaining (or to bring back lost features). And even then, it still fails miserably.

Me too! And if there's room in the game for EA to put out EPs then there certainly is room for one little old bartender sim. Maybe then these wooden TS3 sims would react to "tasting" half a dozen nectars (hic!). LOL.

Oh yeah, I miss that feature from Hot Date, when our sims would get a little drunk and unlock flirty interactions. Too bad TS3 sims can't do that. Is EA trying to get a PG rating or something?

I know its rated teen but the game is totally PG now.

Sims 3 is to The Sims as "New Coke" was to Coca Cola. If you read the history, it was one of the biggest bombs of the 20th century. The pre debut hype was just about as huge as the Sims 3 sales pitch. My prediction is that Sims 3 will be ditched, a new expansion will be added to Sims 2 with the better features from Sims 3. Or maybe I'm just a whacko. But I just sense that this game is getting worse instead of improving. Thus the sense that it is going backwards

I think you're just a whacko... >_>

I think Miss Simpleton hit the nail on the head.